The Client Is Not Your Enemy: Redefining Your Client Relationship


Let’s see how this works, can you guys hear me okay? all right great. First I want to thank you guys for being here, I know
there are two tracks and I won’t be insulted if you don’t like what I’m
saying and you just want to leave, totally cool with me. I want to provide a
lot of value to you and I’m glad we’re talking about the theme of leveling up,
and the specific area that I want to talk about is client interaction. I see a
lot of faces here and I hope that some of you guys here are freelancers or
thinking about starting your own agency, maybe you’re at an agency right now and
you’re kind of plotting and going like this biding your time, thinking about the
Dr. evil plan, right? So I hope to provide a lot of value to you today. The first
thing I want to say is… this is my second or third time back at
Cal. State L.A and I’m thrilled to be here, the first time I was invited to be here
was in 2007, I was speaking about design for AIGA and I gotta tell you in my
mind it was going to be a super awesome amazing opportunity to speak and share
what I know, talk about things I’m passionate about mind you now that was
let’s see here, ’95, ‘7, like twelve years after I graduate from school so
you’d think I would know what I’m talking about, but it didn’t work out that way it
worked out more like this, because I was a nervous wreck, my heart was beating
out of my chest and my palms were sweaty and something about spaghetti, and so
today I’m really here and it’s about the redemption the comeback story if you
will, okay? so hopefully I’ll do okay and if not I just boo and say whatever you
can heckle me it’s all fine, and before I dive too deep into the topic at hand I
want to talk about having a purpose, and having a purpose, I thought I had a
purpose until I saw something that Jack Canfield talked about, and having a purpose
is beyond money, why do you exist? and for a long time I thought my purpose was to
make enough money to provide for my family, my two kids, take care of them, and
to ultimately work hard enough so I don’t have work anymore.
So my purpose was to retire, and I wanted to retire as young as possible so I can
enjoy the rest of my life, but then I realized something, if you work to retire
it’s kind of hard to get up in the morning to work to
retire, when you hit those roadblocks and you’re having difficult moments with
clients or employees or you can’t get past that creative hurdle and it’s 2:00
in the morning that’s not really a purpose I want to share with you what my
purpose is because although I talk about money and business, I don’t want to lose
sight of why we exist and I think you guys need to start looking at that. So my
purpose and why I’m here is to teach a million people the business of design
and to empower creatives to achieve their dreams so I hope to impart some of
what I’ve learned in the last 20 years as a working professional and share it
with you so I have about you know nine hundred ninety nine thousand eight hundred
more to go I was told there’s 200 people we’re a little shy of that so I’ll
change the number after this, it’s all about accuracy right? so, having a purpose is also about, having a really big goal. Having a big goal means it’s the quantum
leap forward in your life, in your career, in your business whatever it is it that
you’re pursuing and that quantum leap and that goal that you have it’s not so
much, it’s not that important that you achieve that goal but it’s about the
person you become in trying to achieve that goal. So just think about that it’s
the journey that matters there, so the goal is a destination but we think
about who we have to become. So many of you guys maybe feel this way with your
clients frustrated, a little bit? you can raise your hand if you want. This is a popular
sentiment my clients have really bad taste, there’s articles written about
this by leading design professionals; Why your clients suck. okay? Oh my God my
clients aren’t listening to me, what’s wrong with them? they just ruin the work.
clients ruin the work? it started out good at the beginning? and it somewhere
along the way got really ugly and so you can’t even show it to your
friends. here’s another popular idea I need to educate the client. hear that?
they teach you this in school educate the client, and at the end of the day
we’re not appreciated at all for the work that we do that many hours, it’s a
thankless job sometimes. Okay so now I’m going to launch into this, I think I had six
points or seven but I woke up at 5:00 this morning I changed some things so I
don’t know how many points I have left but
let’s start with the artist persona, what I want you to do today is to think about
this, is to let go of the artist persona all right? I know I know oh don’t say it
you could leave it’s fine I won’t be offended the artist persona, I want to
talk about this a little bit, Jackson Pollock he’s an artist he you
know Jack the Ripper right? Van Gogh he’s an artist Andy Warhol he’s an artist
he’s an artist and so here we are at this kind of fork in the road and we
have to make a big decision in our lives because to me an artist is the person
who really works for themselves they want to work on cultivating what their
perspective is on the world and they want to share that but they don’t exist
to serve any particular client or purpose other than sharing their unique
vision with the world and if those artists are hard-working are passionate
enough or have an interesting idea or concept and they’re at the right place
the right time maybe with a little bit of luck they go into the national
international stage and they become really rich and it’s a fantasy because
only very few select people ever make it to that stage so here we are at this
road and when I say to the left we work for ourselves and to the right we have
clients but we need to make a choice because oftentimes a lot of the artist
types they basically work in some kind of low-rent district they have some kind
of warehouse or artist studio and they paint really sculpt and they make things
they don’t get paid very much if anything at all and it’s a pursuit of
passion it’s not sustainable and it’s a very tough life to live and I think
that’s why I think most of you guys are here because you’re working
professionals you want to have a career you want to provide for your family so
we have to just now embrace the fact that we actually have clients all right?
so if we understand that we’ll stop complaining about our clients because
they’re the ones who make our lifestyle our art our design our passion possible
so I, just suspend disbelief for a second I know your disbelief
is he’s a sellout he’s up here he’s going to just brainwash us but I don’t
know just hang on for a second okay? So the number one question whenever I go
out and speak and I’m doing that more often these days is Why do clients have
such bad taste? why is that? and I think it’s because we have this idea that when
a client hires us that they’re really helping to build our portfolio, and
that’s the classic mistake and it’s a mistake that I’ve made I see my students
make this I see freelancers who work for us make this and I’ll share one example
with you, early on I was doing storyboards for main titles and I was
hired by Kyle Cooper at RGA LA now Imaginary Forces, to do storyboards for
main title and I didn’t care if they won the job or lost it in the pitch I didn’t
care at all, all I wanted to do was make really cool boards and it was kind of
like design masturbation it was really just about pleasing myself it was a very
selfish act right? and some people still work to this day just thinking about their
portfolio you don’t really serve your clients very well, so these were some of
the first year mistakes that I made and I got a school in 1995 then with the big
bright idea that I’m going to start my company right away without any
experience or client so I’m going to share a little bit with you some of the
first year mistakes because I’ve gone up and down this arc many times when we’ve
grown and we’ve been reduced down to nothing and I think we’re going to go
out of business and some of the lessons I’ve learned in last 20 years I hope to
impart with you to make you more powerful to be able to avoid those same
mistakes and the benefit of having a great relationship with their client is
many-fold and I want you to think about that for a second, first it’s because you
become more valuable, if you provide a great service it’s a website an app
design a brand messaging a logo anything like that, you become more valuable to
your clients and when I say valuable usually that has money or dollars
attached to that, so you’re tired of working on you know two three four
$5,000 sites you have to start thinking about the value you provide to them, the
other benefit of having a great client relationship is
the ability to get more work from them, now I will talk a little bit later about
sales and marketing but everybody always says, my sales is through
word-of-mouth well what are they saying about you? oh yeah my designer was trying
to educate me that’s really insulting they want to tell me about my business
and about how I’m ruining the design that’s not that kind of word-of-mouth
that you want, the kind of word-of-mouth that I get are clients who call me and
they literally have said this you should charge me more
don’t tell my partner that okay? and when I meet with clients they often refer me
and are kind of like it’s almost embarrassing when they talk about me in
front of other people and it’s great because this is how I grow my business I
grow my practice and I’m getting to the right kind of clients like all of us
dream of working for those big companies, for you guys it might be a Nike or
sports person it could be Lulu Lemon it could be any one of these brands but
where you’re at today you’re not going to be able to get there and the only way
you can get there is to do great work for good clients who appreciate the work
that you do and they recommend you to friends and they just keeps going higher
and higher, so I’m really thrilled to tell you as of this year and it’s taking
me 20 years to get here I’m working now with clients directly with our first
ever publicly traded company and that’s amazing in the result of that, the reason
why I have that is because I service a different client to the best of my
ability and that client will call me up on a Friday evening and just tell me I’m
calling you just to tell you I really appreciate you man I like the work have a
great weekend. Do your clients do that? do you want that? I do, so we got to start
thinking about the client relationship dynamic to be much different and last of
all and probably most importantly is if you change the dynamic you’ll be much
happier. We’re doing this thing and I often run into this a lot of designers
will tell me they have a passion project and I’m always confused by that I
thought you did design or web or whatever it is that you do and that was
your passion but because of your process is so difficult you
have to now have a hobby from your hobby and that’s a crazy idea to me
right? okay so the first thing we need to do is we need to kind of be more
empathetic we have to understand what it’s like to be a client, some of you
guys have been clients before so I want you to think about that, what is it to be
a client? because oftentimes we’re just looking at it from our side of the table
so one way to phrase this because I’ve been a client and I serve clients well,
freelancers, designers, employees, I’m a client because I’m the boss, you’re supposed
to do work for me I’ve hired architects I’ve hired all sorts of people’s
attorneys financial planners those kinds of people, I want to be served well and be
treated with respect and I want to be listened. So let’s just take this example
because everybody’s been a client in this way, so this is the coolest image I
can find for a hair salon, you can see I have a lot of experience with hair salon
so we’re going to talk about that a little bit, so let’s say you guys go into
the hair salon you have amazing hair right? and you tell the stylist I’d like
to get that Tom Cruise haircut and they’re okay great sit down they put the bib
around you they start cutting, how do you feel about that?
they just started so the problem is Tom Cruise has been around for a long time,
like which Tom Cruise haircut are we talking about? is this from risky business
you know? when he slides out onto the stage? is it that Tom Cruise? is it the Jerry
Maguire Tom Cruise? what? Tropic thunder? alright people can barely tell which Tom
Cruise that was, you know the Mission impossible 15 Tom Cruise? which Tom
Cruise is that? okay so let’s identify one so that that stylist was talking to
you now and asking you and kind of probing to understand what you really
mean ok then they start cutting, we feel okay right? well hold on a second
well my hair texture is a little bit different I don’t have any hair right? or
maybe it’s wavier it’s straight or maybe that my face and the structure maybe
it’s more round or pointed or square so I want somebody okay all right you want
the edge of tomorrow Tom Cruise, we’re testing your movie trivia, alright people
are like what? okay edge of tomorrow Tom Cruise and then they run their hands
through your hair and like okay I get it look at your face okay so here’s the
reality Bob, Bob I can’t do that cut but here’s what I think you want and
describe it to you based on your hair texture in the way that you part and all
that kind of stuff is that acceptable? great now they get
into that, so now the relationship, you can walk out with a different set of
expectations you’re not going to look in the mirror and say wow I look just like
Tom Cruise because there’s no way you’re going to do that, but the expectations
are set up for you to be able to walk away feeling great about the experience
and they took the time to listen to you to hear you and to personalize the
service that did create just for you and that makes you feel really good right? so
now I want you guys to think about that that’s what it’s like to be a client, so
think about in your own relationship your own interactions how you actually
work with your client, all right. So part of that (this is point two) is
having a clearly defined goal, as part of this kind of maker creative mentality
where we’re really quick to rush out and make things without a real understanding
of what the problem and the goal is. So what we come back with after working on
it for weeks on end and we show our client something and they hate it, we
have that kind of dismal reaction like you’re stupid this is dumb like
you’re getting in the way of my art. it’s because we didn’t take that time to
understand what the goal is, we have a vague and abstract understanding of the
objective so another way to look at that is when somebody asks you to design a
house okay? great this is the house I want to design it’s John Paulson
he’s amazing minimalist architect beautiful homes I don’t think anybody
ever lives there because it’s always perfect right? but before you go and dive
into that you want to ask some questions like what kind of house? what
style? is it modern? is a traditional Cape Cod? is it Mediterranean? Spanish? what
kind of style is it? and we don’t want to just stop there we want to dive a little
deeper who’s it for? how will it be used? single-family? bachelor? post parties? what
did they do? how do they use it? where will it be located? so there’s a great
quote that I love and it’s you can’t score if you don’t know where the goal
is, so what we have to do is to define the goalposts as best as we
can and we have to use human language not technical language or design
language to talk to our clients about it. When you do that you intimidate your
clients and what they do is they go along with what you say because nobody
wants to seem stupid so when you ask them is that site responsive? native?
adaptive? what? what are you talking about?
maybe you shouldn’t even talk about that understand their users and their needs and
then prescribe a solution based on understanding that, okay so I want to
test how well you guys have been listening okay so I like to do this
because I’ve timed this out and I know I was running short so I’ve added the game
back in so the game is called 21 questions alright? so you guys know how
21 question goes. I’m going to think of a person, I’ve already thought of a
person its all scripted it’s real, imaginary, living, or dead okay and I’m
going to make it a little harder for you because I see really smart looking
people here, so make a little harder for you and that you can only ask yes or no
questions that’s how it goes so everybody understand? so we got to do
this in five minutes because otherwise we’ll be overtime okay you guys ready? so
you have 21 questions at the end of which we’ll have three guesses so I’m
gonna think of a person. Yeah OK I got Okay you guys ready? so here we go
does anybody want to throw out the first question? go ahead, living or dead? are they alive? Are they alive? Yes yes yes I, you know okay look here’s how it
goes before I start harassing you guys I give you three chances to screw it up
it’s a yes-or-no question if you have to be a not yes or no question I’ll just
advance the clicker you guys get it? don’t screw it up for this team, I’ve
done this a couple of times actually I’ve done this game many times only two
teams have ever guessed it right and it was a wild ass guess a wag okay? I have no
idea how they were able to guess, it was just totally random so let’s keep going yes it’s not me yes Are they short? yes Are they on T.V? yes Bad hair? good hair? or no hair? keep going Are they on T.V Right now? yes Do they work for an Evil Mastermind? no Are they disabled? no Are they human? no what? Is it a kid? no Are they yellow? wait hold on, are they yellow? yes Can I guess? do you want to? go ahead yes no Is it a Disney Character? no no Are they animals? yes You guys were doing so great at the
beginning I was scared and then you guys went off the rails, you got too excited
you only have two more questions and you’re doing great on time thank you
very much appreciate it, just throw it out you don’t have to raise your hand
we’re informal. Are they in the movies? yes Is it a Muppet? no alright so now we’re out of questions that so now you
have three guesses so anybody wants to throw out a guess they can, go head Homer Simpson? is it Homer Simpson guys? no, no is the answer one two more guesses go ahead I saw a
hand over there you retract okay you don’t have to do it, you don’t want to get shamed
by everybody in the room that’s all right go ahead is it Pickachu? Pickachu? Good guess, no. One more Is it Tweety Bird? Tweety Bird? no alright so It’s an impossible game to win you know with a hundred people it’s tough it’s tough because well let’s talk about what
you guys learned okay? The first thing is there’s a term called happy years, happy
years is a term that they use in sales a lot and, I didn’t know this term
until about a year and a half ago, it means you hear what you want to hear,
that no matter what the client or the person says if you think it’s Homer
Simpson you just keep thinking it’s Homer Simpson even though somebody had
asked is it an animal and I said yes and is it small? yes so that would go
against that so you hear what you want to hear, another way of thinking about
happy years is you’re on this locomotive train it goes forward or it stops it
doesn’t ever turn so you want to have the ability to turn and maneuver a
little bit here okay? And what we realized is it’s very difficult to be an
active listener you have to quiet the thoughts in your head, you have to keep
an open mind and you have to let the evidence lead you to the next step, and
the other thing you might have learned is, asking is more important than talking,
I saw some people taking notes, some people did not so it becomes a lot
clearer, so one of the other things that you want to learn about the way you ask
questions is this, each question should help to filter the realm of
possibilities, that’s straightforward so when somebody asks you to build a
website that’s very broad open and impossible to solve, you might get lucky
but I would not mistake luck with a good plan
okay so when we do this this is a graph that I’ve created just for this game and
it makes it a lot easier to understand. There were basically two sets of
variables. Is the person real or imaginary? right? and is the person real
or imaginary? imaginary so we’ve eliminated half the realm of
possibilities now, the next question was really, Are they male or female? do we
know if it’s male or female? Did I say that? So there you are, I saw you taking notes
I’m taking note that you’re taking notes all right so it’s male so like now we’re
down to 25% it makes guessing a lot easier right? So you might then say, is it
the older adult or child? right? so there can be some room for
interpretation as to what’s an adult whats a child but if you say it’s child
and it’s an older person we’re not going to mix that up, so we want to reduce it
down. I wasn’t sure about the age of this particular person but I kind of consider
them an adult because they’re not child or old okay? right I don’t have an animal
graph on here sorry, I cannot, I’m not omniscient and i cannot see the future
so i do not know all your questions, it would be amazing if I did huh? I’d be
really good, very valuable at that point so then we’re trying to determine if
this person is in the movies or in book or TV so the kinds of question that you
ask have to be very specific at points now so we start broad and then we get
really specific so you said are they on film? well almost everything is on film now
almost everything that’s a film is now also on TV so the kind of question might
want to ask is, did this character originate in film, TV, or a book? so he’s
paying attention you’re going to do really well in this lecture here, I could
see that already, you guys watch out for him. So the character originated in books as far as I know, and the character is Garfield
right? so right when you ask yellow I had to pause I’m like yes, so then you have
to pay attention to nuance of the way I answered, a lot of the questions I was
able to answer yes or no because it’s very clear, so active listening is also
about reading my body language and my tone, okay? so I hope that helps you out a
little bit so here’s the other thing we’re working with group dynamics and
for a different kind of conference I would say, well what do we learn about
group dynamics? it’s hard for us to agree to strategy, people aren’t paying
attention we’re not all playing on the same team etc but we’re not doing that
today this is really about clients right so what you want to do is you want to
keep an open mind, you want to ask questions to narrow the possibilities, so
you start as broad as possible, you want to cut this thing in half each and every
time if you can, and when it gets narrower now you have a hypothesis as to
what it could possibly be and then it’s time to get very specific about the kind
of questions and be careful vague and open-ended questions, now you can see
some of you guys may be frustrated feel like I’ve cheated you that’s totally
okay because I am sometimes a cheater and I
frustrate people, but not intentionally most of the time right, so the thing is
when you ask your clients oh is it graphic? so yeah it’s graphic and great you go and do this thing, well, graphic means a lot of things to a lot of people, did you
ask the vague question? you get big answers and then you’re like upset now
who should be upset then? you should be upset at yourself, you’re the person to
blame really you set yourself up for failure and there’s ways that you can
avoid that okay? start broad get specific and then just listen okay? so now
assuming that after 10 minutes of talking about this you’re an expert at
listening and asking questions and defining goals you’re amazing, but you
still run into problems, you will, so there’s is term, it’s called mental jujitsu,
mental judo, mental chess, whatever it is alright, kinetic, you’re going to think
about how to do this and there’s an image of here if you guys know anything
about martial arts I’m a martial arts fan not a practitioner, don’t fight me
later alright karate is like hard hand to hand like striking and it’s a lot of
power and brute strength, Jiu Jitsu on the other hand is using leverage and
positioning and this is a concept I learned not too long ago,
ok what we want to do is when we’re confronted with an objection from our
client after having listened to them very carefully and showing them work, is
what we want to do is embrace and what we want to do is pivot so that we’re
both on the same team, just think about that a little bit embrace and pivot and
there’s some, there’s some other ways of understanding this right? and it comes to
the way we are as human beings. If you’re walking down the street and somebody
walks straight at you, right staring right at you walking right in your line,
you’re going to come into collision and you have to make a decision and am I
going to fight or am I going to run away?
those aren’t two good decisions that you want to put your client in, now imagine a
person is walking next to you side by side and they lean over it’s like oh did
you see that thing down the street? that’s not confrontational what we want
to do is we want to be facing the same direction as our clients and it’s hard,
so here’s an example this is a very easy example to illustrate the point.
Clients will almost always say this, make it bigger, this fascination with sides
make it bigger bigger bigger bigger okay so if you confront them head on like my
opening slide you’re going to get that that friction, so you say no we should keep
it small because it’s tasteful and that’s that’s gross that’s clumsy that’s
awkward it’s weird its inelegant it’s all those things, what you’re doing is you’re
forcing your client to dig into their position because there’s a need on a
psychological level for us to be consistent so if I say big and you say
small I fight even if I don’t really believe in big I just meant bigger than
small, like medium big right? but now I have to keep defending myself and you’re
going to paint the client into a corner forcing yourself to then deal with this
thing, right? so this need to be consistent and one way around this is
and it’s a great principle just before about anything in your life is to ask
why three times because when you ask why three times you get to the root of what
it is. right? So the client says make it big, they’re like Oh
big that’s interesting why do you say that? well you know the type is yellow
and the background is white and I’m having a hard time reading and then you
know my vision isn’t that great and…, oh so you really you’re talking about a
contrast issue not so much a size issue so if I chose a darker shade of yellow,
do you think that might work? oh yeah okay why don’t I show you that at our
next meeting and you tell me and then we’ll decide if we should make it bigger.
They’ve heard they know that I’ve heard them and I’m going to address it with
the proper solution. So this is addressing the need vs a want, okay,
you’re getting into the deeper part of it. Are you serious?
did you really stare at the.., oh yeah you’re right, I have to speed this up
okay you know what Donald Trump doesn’t respect the rules neither will, I it’s very
much in fashion right now screw it. I’m here to deliver value, okay, so
selling sucks it sucks to sell we hate selling and the reason why is because we
have a horrible experience with salespeople, the car salesperson, the
door-to-door sales person, put his foot in the door, I can’t, the telemarketer
and the retail experience like when I go into a retail store when you guys go
into retail retail store of some kind of aspirational brand, you’re ready
uncomfortable to begin with because let’s face it we’re not as fashionable
as we’d like to be and we’re not in the best shape of our lives, so we go in
there we just want to shop a little bit just leave us alone right? but then that
person very persistent and aggressive like can I help you get … why
don’t you try this you know that looks great on your I… so we have this
reaction, so I need to help you guys flip the concept of what it is to sell, and to
me selling is about providing a solution to a problem if there’s no problem I’m
not selling, okay, and I believe in what I do and I believe in the value and impact
that I can make on a company’s business, that it will actually affect their
bottom line to improve their system their process so I’m not selling
anything I’m providing a value if I can’t do that, I’m going away so the
thing that you want to start thinking about is, is there a problem that you can
solve? and so one way you can brooch out if you’re having a meeting with somebody
you can just say; tell me what it’s like in a day in your life at work. What kind
of pain points do you have? what are the struggles? and you could change that to
tell me the pain points you have with the website? what are some of the
problems that you’re feeling that you have? and then you’re thinking to
yourself, are any of these things things I can solve? maybe you’re an SEO expert an
SEM person whatever it is a conversion person think about that so you want to
direct the question towards something that you might be able to solve. two
minutes huh? all right, so for me I wonder is there a problem to solve
can I solve it and sometimes I can’t, some clients want me to do work for amounts
of dollars of that don’t work for me, I want to know that right up front I don’t
want to spend three meetings finding out they only have two thousand dollars to launch
a ecommerce site I can’t do that, somebody can I can’t, and so for me a lot of
times is, can they afford me? all right, so here’s the way that you do it the
wrong way. I considered like blindsiding the client and you ask for
it right at the front, so you’re talking how is the kid? so there so why don’t you
hire me? that’s really awkward think about that Ram, those two Rams going
against it, and people do this to me all the time
you guys might do later today so when you’re gonna hire me? like hey get to
know me a little bit, so they’re not rapport, like take me out for dinner first,
I mean, let’s just, you know give me a flower or something you just want to
jump to it right, okay and I’ll do this really fast as I know I’m one minute and
18 seconds over time. I know that, stop harassing me dude. Going past the cell,
Wanna tell you about this, okay people do this all the time,
because we put so much work into our idea or effort once the client says yes
shut up just shut up stop, people don’t realize this they just
keep talking and talking and you’ll talk yourself out of the sale. Really fast or
you guys in Jordan Belfort he’s the wolf of Wall Street, he’s a real person not a
fictional thing, and if you watch some of his videos he has a story to tell,
and I’ll tell it really fast is I’m ready to buy Mercedes,
I have money I’m making money I’m killing it I go into a Mercedes
dealership say I want to buy this car, the salesperson says let me show you
about the features, have you driven this before? the tire seat, and he got so frustrated so he just walked out. So he goes to the BMW dealership, is, I want to buy this car,
the guy’s, great let’s get a paperwork going, he’s like this is great sits down
they’re working on the paperwork he sees that there’s a photo on the back and
his kid plays basketball, he’s like oh you kid plays basketball. He goes though
let me tell you about my kid he’s the star but he goes into the stories, he’s like,
thank you very much he leaves. He goes to the Porsche dealership I want to buy
this car, let’s do the paperwork, here’s the keys, thank you drove away. When
somebody is ready to buy shut up and get out the way, yes shut up, all right? And if
they say no, ask why, because you can turn the negative into a positive you can
learn something from it, all right I’m sorry I’m out of time thank you very
much. (clapping)

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